Curse

stuffe · Jun 25, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

one thing most gimmick builds have in common is that they use many of the same/nearly same character. a way to force more diversity and also make more skills being used would be to only allow the same elite skill once in a team. obviously this dont remove all the gimmicks (soul barbs/IWAY) but it does do something without making it overly complicated while also making more skills see play.

Ensign · Jun 25, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Question: have balanced builds gained or lost power since factions?

Balanced builds are at a serious low point right now. You have two gimmick builds, SB/RI and Triple Smite, that are relatively tactics-lite and that you'll lose to straight up if you don't have the right tools in your build to fight them. On the flip side, it is very, very difficult to design a build that has the tools needed to fight both of those gimmicks, in addition to giving you game against all the other stuff you might run into.

In short - more than ever, even high level ladder games are being won and lost before the timer starts and the gates open. There is very little strategy involved and I can feel myself getting worse as a player at times. The depth of strategy and tactics, of seeing the other team and dynamically adapting and figuring out how to outplay them is largely absent from a large number of matches, and because of it the game isn't fun right now.

There's a certain amount of 'addiction' to winning, and the history of the game keeps me playing out of habit. But this metagame of 'who can pull the right matchups for their ridiculous gimmick' makes me want to throw up. Combine that with rampant smurfing and there is very little reason to play right now. I hope arena.net is taking notes because the game is due some serious changes for the next tourney season.

Peace,
-CxE

Tortoise · Jun 25, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

I agree that SB-RI and triple smite are just mighty annoying and deserving a nerf but the problem there is more of a balance problem then a problem with gimmicks. I must admit it is rather sad to observe Top matches and see triple smite end matches in less then 4 minutes. I can only fear what this spells for the playoffs but the problem here is still balance and not gimmicks. The temporary state for balanced builds does not spell it's necessary downfall yet.

wren e · Jun 25, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Here is my take on gimmick builds and the metagame. Gimmick builds are usually the counter or something unique that hasn't been seen before, and as such, are difficult to play against until the metagame changes to incorperate skill changes to handle facing them. In this sense, gimmick builds are good, in that they force changes in the metagame, keeping it always fresh. The issue is that when there are multiple gimmick builds that are highly effective, it becomes highly difficult for a balanced builds to perform well due to only having 64 skills able to bring into a GvG. Balanced Builds will change to incorperate skills to face the new FOTM gimmicks, but by doing so will open up a new gimmick to take its place that takes advantage of the changes made. Of course whenever a new gimmick first comes out, it seems overpowered and will get overused then, but once it becomes standardized counters are found and the gimmick is then not effective anymore.

So, inconclusion, I don't think that there is a problem with gimmick builds, there has always been and will continue to be them. The are driving force of the metagame and help keep the competitive portion of the game exciting and new. As long as there are more skills to choose from than you can fit on your skill bar, people should not force one style or type of build on the community based on their perception of what takes skill to run and what doesn't. It really comes down to is what works, what doesn't, and what you need to change in your build to deal with the current metagame and win. And remember, in the end it is just a game, have fun.

glenn_rolfe · Jun 26, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There is very little strategy involved and I can feel myself getting worse as a player at times.
Peace,
-CxE

Man, this is the best point of all. You actually become a worse player playing against this rubbish. And that just sux.

Red Locust · Jun 26, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

I agree with Ensign, a lot of matches are being decided before the gates open, which really feels like crap. There's a certain satisfaction in pulling off a victory by outplaying a build deficiency and beating the other side, but vs. the latest gimmick builds it just feels like the odds are overwhelmingly against you and you have little hope of pulling off anything unless the other team is grossly incompetent.

Guild Wars competitive play is losing a lot of the stuff that attracted me to it, and I hope ANet do some damn good skill rebalancing next season to make up for all this.

Almighty Zi · Jun 26, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I'd like to second Ensign's sentiments here. With the 2 major broken builds being so prevalent at the moment, it is very hard to run a balanced GvG build.

Folk can suggest ways to counter or beat SB+BR spike and triple smite but it won't be without making a major adjustment to your own build and at which point your build becomes more of a counter and overall weaker.

You used to be able to chose 64 skills that would allow you to outplay your opponent, now, you either have the skills on your bar to deal with the opposition's particular gimmick or you don't and there's very little midground.

Of course there has always been the case where certain builds are more effective against others but previously even if you had the weaker build you could still outplay your opponent. Now, the gap is too wide and matches are decided based on builds rather than player skill.

Frantic-Sheep · Jun 26, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I must say I dont have any experience in the top pvp enviroment but there is a thing I'm wondering.
Is SB/BR or Trip smite *that* powerful that even other top guilds get thrown out with strong teamplay and communication?

I mean, if I observe matches there was always some kind of 'trend' being in the top guilds (every season). Every match I observed had some kind of build that got copied along the way and ended up being mirror matches to watch. This evolved till anyone found a strong counter and that got adepted once more.

But still, I always thought that strong teamplay and individual skills where more at hand than the skillbar and equipment you carried (To a certain amount). Are those builds so imbalanced that strategy and wits dont matter anymore?

kvndoom · Jun 26, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

I observed my first Soul Barbs spike yesterday and yes it is very devastating. Mainly because each individual unit of damage is relatively small, and its potency comes from the sheer number of damage units. Spikes that involve high single-attack damage can be negated (reduced, anyway) with Prot Spirit or Spirit Bond, but you can only hope to out-heal low damage-per-hit spike.

While part of me is happy to see smiting actually useful again, I know it won't last. Since day one of Guild Wars, smiting has been either overpowered or useless. I have never seen it properly balanced, and maybe it can't be balanced. If / when AoE gets nerfed, smiting will once again get dropped like dead weight.

Mister Muhkuh · Jun 26, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

im not against these gimmick builds, they all have their weak point and if not, every1 will play them and the better one wins ;-)
so u CAN defeat them if u are good enough...(ive seen the soul barbs spike, but u can beat it([evil] won that game))

and i am 100% against skill swap in battle!!

sgtclarity · Jun 26, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuffe

one thing most gimmick builds have in common is that they use many of the same/nearly same character. a way to force more diversity and also make more skills being used would be to only allow the same elite skill once in a team. obviously this dont remove all the gimmicks (soul barbs/IWAY) but it does do something without making it overly complicated while also making more skills see play.

That's by far the worst idea I've ever heard.
How does reducing the amount of copied elites make a team more diverse? If anything, it ruins the fun of guild wars completely.
Every gimmick build has a counter and ones like RI/SB are two heartbeats away from being fixed

cookiemonkie · Jun 26, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

In regards to the original post. The only real solution after this season is a big nerf to both smite and SB/Ri. When GvG becomes little more than HA in terms of builds, poor map layouts that encourage 8v8 slug fest at the flag stands and little else in terms of strategy than this game is going to lose a large audience of players. Whatever audience GW gained in the short term, they will lose their core audience who was drawn to a game advertised that skill and tactics dictated the outcome of matches.

Those who think countering triple smite is as simple as stripping zealots fire or splitting and ganking need to play against the build more often. You simply don't have enough enchantment strips and snares with a balanced build, and the smite team will out dmg and gank your base when you split.

So the game is quite simple right now, either you (1) run smite and do a sustainable 100dps to at least 1/3 of your opponents. (2) Run SB/DI spike, since there usually aren't enough healing seeds to go around. Or (3) Run a counter build to both and realizing you won't have anything to counter the other builds... and also realizing that the new maps encourage 8v8 gank slug fests which makes you realize that you have a better chance running (1) and (2).

Sorry I don't think fixing GvG right now is as simple as nerfing both (1) and (2). The maps themselves are taken HA style of play directly to GvG. Thats when I realize its time to find another game that lives up to the skill / tactics dictates the outcome of games rather than straight up builds.

Innocent · Jun 27, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

In regards to the original post. The only real solution after this season is a big nerf to both smite and SB/Ri. When GvG becomes little more than HA in terms of builds, poor map layouts that encourage 8v8 slug fest at the flag stands and little else in terms of strategy than this game is going to lose a large audience of players. Whatever audience GW gained in the short term, they will lose their core audience who was drawn to a game advertised that skill and tactics dictated the outcome of matches.

Those who think countering triple smite is as simple as stripping zealots fire or splitting and ganking need to play against the build more often. You simply don't have enough enchantment strips and snares with a balanced build, and the smite team will out dmg and gank your base when you split.

So the game is quite simple right now, either you (1) run smite and do a sustainable 100dps to at least 1/3 of your opponents. (2) Run SB/DI spike, since there usually aren't enough healing seeds to go around. Or (3) Run a counter build to both and realizing you won't have anything to counter the other builds... and also realizing that the new maps encourage 8v8 gank slug fests which makes you realize that you have a better chance running (1) and (2).

Sorry I don't think fixing GvG right now is as simple as nerfing both (1) and (2). The maps themselves are taken HA style of play directly to GvG. Thats when I realize its time to find another game that lives up to the skill / tactics dictates the outcome of games rather than straight up builds.

I have to say, that's a very good point. No one really talks about how maps dictate team tactics. I know this is a GvG forum, but it's happening in HA aswell. I think players (and ANet) need to examine the maps how they are affecting play in higher level PvP.

shadex · Jun 27, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Gimmick builds are the dev's problems, where tactics and playing them are the players. For instance, the triple smite is extreamly powerfull right now, and generally kills even tacticle builds. It's the dev's jobs to balance out the zealots fire or Air of Enchant, where as the players are not expected to be "honorable" in a game, and are expected to win.

To be honest, i think this is perhaps the best balanced MMORPG type of game i've seen, where as WoW and DAOC would FOTM class's and builds so extreame where one day you would be useless, the next powerfull and then useless again.

I do agree the dev's need to take a look at the shutdown tool kits. However if you forced everyone to play a balance build, or gimmick, you end up making the game rather bland, and no one would try for new builds.

I like JR's idea, however i wonder how many people would be familure with what each build runs, and how they may react to you. It most likely would open a spot in every gvg guild for a guy to do nothing but mark other teams builds. It would however give the team that could run differnt builds, the advantage.

I think the instant solution would be to take RI and code it so it doesnt triger on soul bars, and either make Zealots fire a 60 second recast, changing cast times to 2-3 seconds, or cutting zealots fire's damage in half. I really like the white spike, however i think it should have atleast one exploitable weakness that doesn't atleast 2 seperate players to deal with it.

Vital · Jun 27, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

The SB/RI - SB/AP evolution of the SB spike is from the evil Canadian mind of Pyreus from Time Is Running [OUT]. It took less then a few observes for it to kick into high gear as a rating farmer. It is so broken that [Nu] ran it right up to rank 11 on the ladder with realative ease.

The SB/RI symbiosis needs to be nerfed, plain and simple. It is the developers jobs to balance out the game so that it is a tactical game instead of a button smasher. Now of course you could run an anti SB build, but it would be so 1D that you would be at a complete disadvantage to the majority of other builds out in GvG.

Countering the new SB can be done, although not easily, through smart retreating/kiting, interupting or diverting one or both Necros, mass hex removal, or spliting. A spirit of Union is helpful, but dies too quickly to be depended on.

Double and triple smite are also very popular, but not truely broken like the new SB spike. I think a slight nerf would be good for a certain Elite monk skill that has brought on this rage.

minor · Jun 27, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

JR s idea would be abused sorry to say. Teams that just wanted to farm rating would have one of their players on vent and at the ladder page of GW. When the team name pops up that player checks there rank. If its a team thats a 200 or so lower they go in, if its a higher ranked guild they cancel. They won't make playoffs but a team could get higher on the ladder then they should.
I give gratz to Pyreus and OUT for doing well with with SB/Ri spike, but giving them credit for the build is a joke. I saw people run it before them. If you went to guildwiki before the build was seen on the ladder it stated that RI would combo well with SB.

Vital · Jun 27, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

I give gratz to Pyreus and OUT for doing well with with SB/Ri spike, but giving them credit for the build is a joke. I saw people run it before them. If you went to guildwiki before the build was seen on the ladder it stated that RI would combo well with SB.

Actully we ran it half heartedly and half assed. But the Dual SB/RI and SB/AP (Assassins Promise, which gives you back a good amount of energy and recharges all your skills) version of this spike was put into play by Pyreus. It is the build you saw. Like every build it will be tweaked and tinkered with, but he did take the SB/RI and SB/AP build to high level GvG last week.

overclocked · Jun 27, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Every build is a gimic build, If you play a build with out the right counters, is the build at fault or you?

Of course you are at fault but this thread is saying the opposite.

Dont be a scrub, Read Sirlin Stop Crying and get better at the game please.

cookiemonkie · Jun 27, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Every build is a gimic build, If you play a build with out the right counters, is the build at fault or you?

Of course you are at fault but this thread is saying the opposite.

Dont be a scrub, Read Sirlin Stop Crying and get better at the game please.

You say this as if you think you know it all, oh high blind and arrogant. Read peoples justifications as to why SB/Ri and Air of Enchantment Triple smite is so broken before taking your: "Ha I'm better than everyone who think these builds are overpowered even though I don't even play the game."

Patrograd · Jun 27, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by overclocked

Dont be a scrub, Read Sirlin Stop Crying and get better at the game please.

The best players in the game seem to be stuck as a rule on how to counter the three current FOTMs and still leave themselves open to beating other builds.

As a result, the best teams in the world are now not using "normal" builds, they are running low skill, low strategy farming builds, against their wishes in many cases.

This situation is causing many of these best players to wonder if they have a future in a game that rewards only low skill, low strategy play and punishes high skill, high strategy play.

This is a situation that badly needs addressing as a matter of some considerable urgency if this game is to see its second birthday as it saw its first - as a game that PVP gamers took seriously as a proper strategic challenge.

The game currently is broken. This has nothing to do with Sirlin